How can computers coexist with ecosystems?: Ken Suzuki, Morio Morita | Article | Shinchosha FORESIGHT | Membership International Information Site

(Continue from the first part)

Morita: In the previous work "Mathematical Body", Turing is broadly divided into the first half of the leading role and Kiyoshi Oka, but "Calculation Life" corresponds to the first half of the previous work.I think it is necessary to write down the "second half" again.In that sense, the fourth chapter is like a trailer that connects in the second half, but I feel like I had a big hint to go there in today's dialogue.increase.

After coming from the history of ancient Greek mathematics in Suzuki, after reaching one extreme in the 19th century, artificial intelligence and artificial life came out this time.Looking back at the history of humanity and life itself from this point again, you may see something more.What did humans do?If you go around again, you may be able to dig deeper.

When it comes to "hybrid systems", the humanity that invented the calculator is back to the story that it is life.I guess it will go again in the direction of accelerating the evolution of life.It seems to me that I have repeatedly incorporated a discrete system when my life is self -duplicated and eventually complicated evolution with another layer.I still don't know what kind of life it will be.

Morita: What is worrisome is an ecological relationship between a computer and a life that has existed before.Life is not only duplicated and self -preserved, but in the ecosystem, other individuals and the concept of "individual" are mixed so that they are invalid.

I think that "mixing" is a two -way process, which is a relationship between the relationship between bees and flowers, or the relationship between each other, such as the relationship between the relige and the plant.How far can the side of life respond to the consequences of the calculation?What is the relationship between life and computer as the content of the calculation is becoming more and more invisible, and it becomes difficult to make a two -way relationship.Do you think?

Suzuki computer is fast.

Morita: That's right.

Suzuki: I use it for accelerating information processing.I don't really apply a computer in a slow direction.

Morita: You can't have sex with a computer that is too fast, or you can eat or eat it, how do you get more?When we think from the perspective of mixing, not just to use it as a tool, how can we get along with the computer?

The phenomenon of becoming Suzuki poly cells is a major incident in the history of life evolution.Continuous organisms can now produce organs.When a single function is born in the entire body, the role is divided, and each cell has a specialized function.

　Neurons specialize in information transmission and processing.Specializes in filtering toxins with kidney cells.Each cell can play a different role.

　The major feature of multicellular organisms is that the functions are differentiated in this way, but in order to achieve this, it seems that it is essential to pass through the task of code once.

　In other words, in order to explode complexity, it is useless with a spatial structure alone, and in order to go up to a higher level, it has been dropped once to a very simple system, which causes complicated systems at the meta -level.It goes through the process of coming.It is an image that the level of complexity rises once by passing "discrete".

　However, this cake is pseudo.It contains noise from the surroundings, not the true discrete, which expands the possibility of evolution.In the history of evolution of life, what does the birth of paradigm, calculation as an artificial language, meant the evolution of life?

Suzuki: In terms of "mixing", ultimately, as long as you incorporate a paradigm of modern calculation, you will see small nanorobots.I think there are two directions where it is requested.One is Brain Machine Interface (BMI, an invasive or non -invasive indirect, a technology that connects and interiors and treats the brain).BMI is now entering an invasive era from non -invasive type, but it is impossible to pierce any electrode on the surface.

　Then, the ultimate approach is to put the nanorobot in the brain and attach them to each neuron.If you do not do that, you will not be able to get information to the deep structure.So the researchers are determined to aim for it.

　Since the media is an interface that appears on the surface of the body and the environment, how to get the two approaches the problem from a user interface.Ultimately, it's like drinking a nanorobot like a medicine.This adheres to the neuron and realizes a different connection from the neural network.I think that will always happen in the near future.

　Another direction is medical care.In the two directions: medical care and nanorobot as an extension of BMI, the calculation paradigm will probably be incorporated into the biological system in the next few decades.It may be a human, and it can also include non -human animals and plants.Humans should want to control the biological system at the same time as the desire to expand cognitive abilities.

　How to interpret it as the evolution of life is absolutely questioned in the last few decades.Morita -san may not like it, but I think it will always come out.

I am worried about the direction of Ken Morita, the direction of erasing the interface.Even though life is similar to the calculation, it is only in the range that you can see, and how far it intervenes in the activation of living organisms, based on the understanding that you can see at this time.Can I do it?

　It is easy to imagine going in such a direction in the medical field, but in the first place we hardly understand life and death.Even if the technology extends in various ways depending on the technology, the meaning of dying and dying are not deepened.Isn't the balance too bad as it is?

　Also, as you mentioned now, it is a story about embedding a nanorobot in the brain to achieve the calculation that can not be done by the calculation performed by nerve cells alone, but such a flow is rather a natural calculation.I'm worried about whether it will be converted.

　According to a recent study, it has been found that there are about 20,000 creatures among general families (Rob Dan's "House is Economy" White -sha).By using the PCR method, it has been found that many bacteria and ancient bacteria live in water heaters, refrigerators, and ovens.The diversity of creatures themselves have a small effect on human health, and in a sense, the huge calculations that have been performed outside the nervous system have been supporting life.Be aware of the calculations that are already done in the soil, the calculations that the ancient bacteria in the refrigerator are doing in the air, listening to it, and taking the long history of nature.Isn't it necessary to focus more on wisdom to those?

　I understand that computers are increasingly uplifting in the environment as a device that transmit physical nature and human hearts, but I believe in the versatility of the computer as a mediator who connects natural phenomena.I wonder if it's good.

　In the first place, it requires insanely energy to move a computer, so it is a premise that the computer is working smoothly that the life area of the earth is working smoothly.In that sense, before thinking about accelerating evolution on a computer, isn't it the first thing to consider how computers can coexist with existing ecosystems?

Suzuki: Ray Kartil's discussion that advocates the concept of "singularity" in the context of artificial intelligence, as to whether a world where computers evolve while procuring technically energy in such a direction.right.The most science fiction part of his book, "Singularity is close", is the direction in which machines are autonomously performing computational resources and energy procurement.I guess.I don't know if I can do it.

I don't know if I can do Morita, and the story in that direction will be nonsense unless I say it.

Suzuki: That's right.Eventually, the procurement of calculated resources and self -duplication will be inevitable.Even if it breaks, you have to duplicate it yourself.The discussion of singularity is that if you can do that, you will be able to exceed human intelligence as a result.

　The interesting thing about that book is where the hardware side has the power to envision.I think the existence of a robot that procures energy on its own will be a major research theme.

　Nanorobots will just go to such a world.Because electricity cannot be supplied from outside in the first place.Of course, you may not be able to use electromagnetic induction, but I think it will probably be chemically procured in the living body.In that sense, it looks like a virus.Once released, no one can control it anymore.

Morita: The feeling that you can't stop even if you want to stop it is spreading in various places.Not just for computers.

Suzuki's capitalism is the same.

Is it your sense of helplessness against the operation of the Morita world?Climate change will not be stopped if you want to stop it in principle.I feel that the feeling of giving up that I can't stop anyway is spreading.It may have been a time when you felt something you could do, but that may have been more illusion.

Suzuki I guess that's more illusion.After all, when nature was overwhelmingly stronger than humans, humans were eaten.In an era when it was more likely to be "eaten" due to eating or being eaten, the feeling that natural movements, including the climate, would have been quite weak.

Morita: It's not the same, that natural disasters cannot be stopped and that embedding robots in the brain cannot be embedded.

　As you can see, every animal is basically not living until life, and dies if you can eat or eat.However, being eaten is not a defeat, but a cycle circulation through the relationship between eating and eating.

　Humans have left the circulation and are starting to aim for life that will not be eaten or die.Despite all the resources that support their own life, they are trying to anticipate their existence through death to the ecosystem through death.In a world where survival is worthless, it is okay to just say "I can't stop" all of them, as we will embed a computer in the body to control the living body.。I feel a very uncomfortable feeling to just avoid death.

Suzuki: If you go back to the head, you should reach human rights concepts.The life system is different from the individual life.It is human rights concept to maximize the value of individual life, so if you want to think about Morita -san, you have to exceed human rights concepts.

Morita That's an important theme.

Suzuki: However, in human rights concepts, I think there is another problem that "I do not die even if I want to die".After all, there is a medical system and the social security is too strong, so you can't die in Japan.

Morita's modern medical care tries to avoid death anyway, but how well it dies is also a very important problem.

Until recently, I was taking care of my mother and caring until recently.My mother said he wanted to die or die.I had been doing dialysis for about 24 years.

　But what I really don't know is what I want to die.It's difficult.The person himself says, "I want to die," but how should I catch this because it sometimes shakes?I was really worried.

Morita: It's a difficult problem.

What is the intention when confirming Suzuki's will?As a medical practice, it is necessary to confirm intention.If you are transported to the hospital by ambulance, it will be a matter of confirmation.In the first place, what is the person's intention not to treat life?I continued to worry while talking to his mother many times.

Morita: That's right.

Suzuki himself said, "I want to die," and after knowing it, I stopped dialysis once and did not do dialysis for 18 days.She doesn't do dialysis for 18 days means that she has decided to die.However, when I went to the hospital on the morning of the 19th, a doctor told me that she had dialysis because she had a sign of dialysis.At this time, it was really just before dying.So I was surprised that there was no such thing.There is also a question about how the hospital person confirmed the intention.Her mother is almost stunned.

　However, when I actually dialysis, I decided to continue treatment again when I did some recovery.The person himself shakes in suffering.The latest snapshot while the person's intentions are shaking are recorded.You want to live or die, you have to go right and left on that information.

　If you don't write it down, you won't know what to do as a doctor.That's why I always felt the fluctuation in a situation where I was always being asked for confirmation.

Morita: It's the fluctuation of alive.

Suzuki Yes.

　If the fluctuation and the modern medical system did not match, I had to feel painful.It is not the story that each doctor is wrong, but that it is not designed as a system, taking in the shaking itself.

　From a doctor's point of view, what to protect as a hospital is what to do when the patient's family is sued in the end.Doctors have the risk of always being sued from the patient's family when they die, and there is double and triple preparation to prevent it.Legally, dignity death is not recognized in Japan, and medical care is used.

Is there any universal aspect in Morita's shaking?

Suzuki: In the case of my mother, what was it, something like a general frame came out and retracted, and it was a feeling that it was repeating around.In terms of time, if you calm down and feel that such a thing is really acceptable, your mind suddenly changes, and it is a repetition.

　I think it was overwhelmingly hard.He said he was shaking in the joy of eating delicious food and playing with his grandchildren.If it only has a hard time, it would be a straight line.

　When I went to Morita's house in Kyoto last fall, my mother just left the hospital and lived at a hotel in Kyoto.I had been visiting the US presidential election since October, but when I returned to Japan in November, my mother's physical condition gradually worsened, so I spent together in Kyoto.

Morita That was the case at that time.He played with my eldest son.

I thrown a Suzuki origami airplane and played.

Morita: It was more like a boy than anyone who came to me (laughs).

　Did you visit the presidential election for about three weeks?

Suzuki: That's right.I'm glad I went.Only stereotyped information was transmitted, but I saw a lot of things that were not.

It is said that there are various parts of the Morita city and the region as well as each other.

Suzuki Yes.Even in counties with only 20,000 population, there are both towns and countryside, and in a city of 30 people, small towns are liberal.It was interesting because it was fractal.

　In the United States, I felt that lifestyles and values were directly connected.That's why gun regulations are typical, but when it is reported in Japan, why is it not that gun regulations?But when I go to the American countryside, I do hunting and the guns are rooted in culture.I thought that was not easy to change.I think there were many things that I couldn't understand unless I went.

You met people who use smart news in front of Morita Mame.

Suzuki No, I was surprised.I'm using it, actually.

Morita is impressed.

Suzuki Yes.Uo, like.

　At the time of the preliminary election, when I went to a Trump meeting in Las Vegas, the uncle of Trump was using smart news next to me.In Philadelphia, I also met a teacher who uses a function in high school classes in a high school class that can compare the maintenance and liberal articles called News from all sides.

Morita That's trembling.

Suzuki: On the other hand, I don't feel like the division of American society has been resolved at all, so I always think about what happened.I think that someone has to work on how to create a democratic system for the future.

Morita: I felt very much again today, but Ken's great attraction is that philosophical and universal thinking is rooted in concrete and physical experience.Life, evolution, diversity, death, society, democracy ...Various topics have come out, but I feel the body, and while sedimentation and fermentation, I slowly spin a long -range thinking.I'm really looking forward to the fact that what I am still experiencing throughout my whole body in business fields will someday become a universal philosophy and crystal.

Suzuki I don't have much time to write a book.I want you to write instead (laughs).

Morita: Thank you very much for your time today.When I was talking, I came up with a lot of things I wanted to write and think about it.I've been thinking and writing various things so far, while being drawn by Ken's giant thinking gravitational force.These days, I'm busy with each other and have less speech, but that's why I cherish the temporary "distance" and "weak interaction", and I can walk on my own feet.I want to spread it.

　This book may be the first step.In that sense, I got a great deal of power today.

Suzuki: Let's talk about this time again.

Morita Thank you!With the help of business and technology, I am looking forward to seeing what kind of ideas to write in society in the future.

(Completed)　

(Reprinted from the January 2022 issue of "Shincho")

Ken Suzuki (Suzuki) SMARTNEWS founder, CEO.Born in Nagano Prefecture in 1975.He graduated from the Department of Physics, Faculty of Science and Engineering, 1998.2009 He completed a doctoral program at the Graduate School of Comprehensive Culture, the University of Tokyo.He is a doctor (academic).His book is "Smooth society and its enemy".

Masao Morita Born in Tokyo in 1985 (Showa 60).Independent researcher.He has a base in Kyoto and is conducting live activities such as "Mathematics Concerts" and "Mathematics Book Talk" in Japan and abroad.In 2015 (Heisei 27), he won the Hideo Kobayashi Prize in his first book, Mathematical Body.Other books include "Mathematics Gifts" and "Calculating Life", picture book "Mathematicians who have become ants", and Kiyoshi Oka's "Mathematics Life".